M – Do you know something or everything?
V – I know something. But there are more things I do not know.
M – So you do not know everything?
V – Yes, I do not know everything.
M – Is the situation of you not knowing everything a fact?
V – Yes I would say that is a fact.
M – Why is that a fact?
V – Because there are things I do not know. That is true.
M – How do you know that you do not know these things?
V – Because I know there are things I do not know. For example, I do not know advanced calculus. Or what is happening on other planets. Or what the government is lying to me about. Or what my brother is doing and experiencing right now. These are all things I do not know.
M – How do you know that you do not know these things?
V – Because I am not there, in those places, experiencing those things. Or, as in the case of calculus, I just lack the knowledge.
M – How do you know these things are happening or exist?
V – I have seen them. I know there is a government. I know there is calculus, and my brother, and I know there are other planets.
M – Are they here now, all those things?
V – No, they are not here. They are elsewhere.
M – So then your knowing is based on imagination rather than your direct experience, in the sense that you imagine all these people, places, and things to exist.
V – Technically, yes. I have to imagine they all exist because I am not directly experiencing them right now.
M – And who gets to decide if these things exist?
V – The whole world decides that.
M – And is the whole world here now?
V – I don’t understand.
M – Just answer that question: is this whole world that decided these things and people and place exist right here right now?
V – No.
M – So this whole world is also imaginary.
V – I can show you the whole world.
M – Can you? Right now?
V – Well, not right now, it will take time. But why does it have to be right now?
M – I will get to that. But I want to get to the heart of an important distinction: are these facts and truths that you believe are true, but that you don’t know from direct experience, imaginary?
V – Yes they are imaginary by that measure.
M – So they are decisions you make based on your imagination, right?
V – …
M – You are deciding that there are imaginary things you do not know. Right?
V – Yes, I guess it is a decision.
M – So when you say that it is a fact that you do not know certain things — that is really a decision your have made that there are truths which you imagine to exist.
V – Okay….
M – Well you just acknowledged that all these people, places, and topics that you yourself cannot directly experience right now are therefore imaginary. And all the “facts” about these imaginary things are themselves also imaginary. However, you have decided that they are true.
V – Okay…
M – So it is a decision that you only know something. And it would also be a decision that you know everything. So technically, you can decide you know everything or you only know some things.
V – Yes, I guess I can decide I know some things or I know everything.
M – Why decide you only know some things when you could just as easily decide you know everything?
V – I guess because I don’t believe I can know everything. As I told you, there are many things I do not know.
M – Clarification: There are many imaginary things that you have decided that you you do not know. Right?
V – Well, imaginary in the sense that I cannot at this moment demonstrate they exist without imagining them. But give me a moment and I can surely show you all these things neither of us know.
M – So you believe that these imaginary things are real, and you have decided that you do not know them. What would make you believe you can know something but you cannot know everything?
V – I just look around. Look at all there is to know that I do not. Look at all the knowledge on the internet on every topic and subject. With more being discovered every day. How could I possibly know everything?
M – So you think that knowing all these topics as you call them would be part of the totality of everything?
V – Yes, but also all the historical events and the private experiences of other beings. I cannot know all these things, so clearly I cannot know “everything”. Nor can I know what will happen tomorrow anywhere or to anyone one. There are literally infinite things I do not know.
M – You imagine…
V – What do you mean…?
M – We just concluded that all these infinite things that exist are, for you at least at this moment, imaginary. You cannot show them to me right now.
V – True… there are literally infinite things I imagine I do not know.
M – Okay back to my previous line: what do you know with absolute certainty. Meaning, it stems from your direct experience in this moment, rather than imagination.
V – Well, I guess I know that I am here.
M – Okay let’s start with that. You know that you are here. And where is here?
V – Here is in the country of India in a place called Kasar Devi.
M – And how do you know that you are in Kasar Devi in India?
V – I can look at a map. Or I can ask anyone around me. I just have to go outside and I’ll see the signs. It is well-established.
M – And how do those people around you know?
V – Well everyone knows that. We have all been educated at least this much.
M – But ultimately you rely on second-hand even third-hand knowledge to know where you are?
V – Yes I guess.
M – So you cannot say from direct experience right now that you are in Kasar Devi.
V – Well yes I can, because I’ve been here many years. I remember coming here, following the signs. I am here in Kasar Devi.
M – And where is Kasar Devi?
V – It’s a village in Uttarakhand, in India, on planet Earth, in the Milky Way.
M – And how do you know all that?
V – I learned it.
M – So it’s also imaginary in the sense that you must imagine these things to know them.
V – Okay yes.
M – So then you know by imagination.
V – Okay.
M – Is there anything else you know that is not based on something someone else told you, or that you remember learning? Or that you just assume?
V – Yes I directly know that I exist because I am experiencing it now.
M – Do you need to ask anyone else to confirm that for you?
V – No, I don’t need to ask anyone else to confirm that I exist…
M – But you do need to ask other people to confirm where you exist.
V – Yes that is interesting.
M – So then there are two categories of knowledge here: that which you directly know and can validate immediately yourself — such as your existence —- and that which you cannot directly know or validate — such as your geographical location. One you know by experience now, and one you know by imagination and decision.
V – Yes, I’d agree there does seem to be those two categories of knowledge. But I don’t understand why that is important.
M – So if you go back to all this knowledge that you said you don’t or can’t know, which of these two categories is that?
V – It would be knowledge by imagination. The stuff that I know intrinsically can’t be taken away from me and doesn’t have to be learned. It is automatically known to me.
M – So then all this stuff you don’t know — which you believe is part of the totality of knowledge I am referring to — is both unknown to you but also unknowable in the sense you cannot know it. It is imaginary. It is knowledge by imagination.
V – Yes. It is both unknown to me and unknowable by me. And so yes, I can only imagine it, and imagine that I either know it or don’t know it.
M – And then decide if you know it or not.
V – Yes.
M – So then since it’s unknowable to you, you really don’t even know that it is real and actual, do you? You can only imagine that it is real and actual.
V – No — I can just look it up and it is there. I can spend a few seconds looking up information on the internet to see that it is clearly there.
M – Clearly there when and where?
V – Well I personally discover it when I look it up, but it has existed before I see it for the first time.
M – So to be clear, that knowledge that you don’t or can’t know, is verifiably present the moment you see it, but you imagine it pre-existed your observation of it. Right?
V – That is twisting my words. It is there because someone put it there. Someone had to write it.
M – No I am just trying to be clear and speak only what we know with certainty, and separate that from what we can only know by imagining. I repeat: you can find knowledge of experiences or events on the internet that you did not know about before you read about it. Correct?
V – Yes. Lots of it.
M – You imagine this knowledge was created and shared before your observation of it. Correct?
V – Yes of course. Someone had to write that and post it there.
M – So you imagine some other person prepared all that information and wrote it down in the past for you to eventually discover and observe.
V – Well I don’t imagine that. I know that because that is how the world works.
M – But you did not see that other person writing that information down. Remember that knowing by experience as we are using it is stuff you directly experience and can personally validate now. The rest is all believing by imagination. Since you did not see that person put it there on the internet for you to read, you can only imagine that person wrote it before you observed it. Right?
V – Okay then by that measure, I only see it when I observe it. But I can only observe things that are already there.
M – Already there because of something that you imagine happened in the past.
V – Correct.
M – So you know by experience that there is content on the internet you do not know, but you believe by imagination that someone wrote it in the past and put it there.
V – Okay, that is technically true.
M – Can you experience the past now?
V – No, but I can remember it. And I can see artifacts in the present that clearly had to be created in the past.
M – You imagine then that these things you are seeing in your present moment are from the past. You have to imagine because you cannot directly know because you cannot directly experience.
V – Yes, I technically imagine the past because I cannot directly experience it now.
M – Okay, so there are two clear categories of knowledge: that which you know from direct and present experience in this moment. And that which you assume or believe by imagining. Agree?
V – Sure, I see those two categories of knowledge do exist.
M – The point I am trying to make is that knowing is a decision I make. And it is my decision whether or not to admit the imaginary into existence. You are giving equivalent status to that which you know in your present experience, and that which you believe by imagination. Knowing is a state of being. It is my decision that I know only something, or I know everything. It is a decision I make, and nothing more.
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